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Tuesday 11 September 2012

[wanita-muslimah] Discussion on Compassion-2

HV: But don't you think that compassion is allowing people to believe what they want whether or not we agree w/them? It is our judgment that they are based on falsehoods and brainwashing. It sounds too much like "my way is the right way, and your theology is false." I've found that people believe what they do because it is serving some purpose for them the same as self-destructive habits like drug or alcohol addiction. One of my last psychotherapy clients said she would rather die than change. Rather telling, I thought. Some horses you can't even lead to water, let alone get them to drink. Projection is the law - whatever we judge others for, we are doing ourselves. Hence, the Jewish wording of the prayer, "Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you."

SM: You said that it is serving some purpose, the same as self-destructive habits. So.. it is okay to let someone continue in their self-destructive habits just because they think it's what they want? I would not call that compassion, no.

HG: SM, Your posts give me pause...I work on checking my own beliefs and have given up trying to change anothers...it boils down to the understanding that if I believe in something I do not really know from experience...I am taking it on someone else's authority and that brings me to the space of spin and defending...I trust what I know from experience and am aware that my experiences are different from others...

SM: I call compassion doing whatever is the most productive in the long-term, not whatever feels good in the short term.

I don't really hold any beliefs that aren't based on evidence.. that's the thing. I'm not here to tell you my religion is correct, and yours is wrong. I'm here to tell you that anything that is based in a lack of evidence is wrong.

Or, not so much wrong as it is unnecessary and (often) destructive. We human beings tend to be destructive when we do things without using logic, reason, and evidence.

HG: logic reason and evidence are all subject to manipulation by ourselves and by others...I am not sure that I understand compassion in terms of what is "more productive in the long term" there is so much more to it than that.

HV: A simple example is people who smoke and know it's causing cancer. Even AA programs say they can't change anyone's self-destructive habits until that person decides for themselves that they want another way to be. What we can do that is compassionate is love them enough the way they are, and that in itself may be what allows them make their own choices. I remember a story from 40 years ago about a woman calling a psychotherapy volunteer saying she wanted to commit suicide. The therapist said she was in the middle of painting her house; but if this woman wanted to come over and help, she would be glad to talk to her. That's all it took. Or another story from one of Stephen Levine death and dying groups in which someone shared that she also wanted to commit suicide. The group responded that if that's what she really wanted, they supported her decision; but that they loved her either way. Of course, she changed her mind.
SM: HG, I do not agree that reason, logic, and evidence are that subject to manipulation. Of course, you can manipulate anything, but there is definitely real logic and concrete evidence that cannot be refuted. Eventually, the reality will be known. As Buddha said, "There are three things that cannot long be hidden. The sun, the moon, and the truth."

My goal is to simply help guide people towards the truth. I agree with you, HV, that you cannot force anybody into changing, and that it's not healthy to try to do so. But, as Chris Hedges says, "Tolerance is a virtue. Tolerance coupled with passivity is a vice."

We are all connected, and it is not our job, in my opinion, to stand by and simply watch people destroy themselves (and our own selves) in the process. I believe that we are all One and that we should be helping one another towards Reason and Truth, not just letting people do whatever. Sure, they should be able to lead their own lives and make their own decisions, but it is our job, if we have a better understanding of reason, logic, and evidence than someone else, to help them see.

Not only that but they do not only affect themselves with those poor decisions, they affect those around them. Second hand smoke is even worse for you than first hand. Committing suicide will inevitably traumatize your loved ones forever. And ignorant, religious dogma ruins many things - it creates war, creates invisible (imaginary) divides between groups of people, it encourages the teaching of fake science in science classrooms, it encourages hatred and bigotry and discrimination (think gay rights). It's not fair to just sit around and passively let them ruin others' lives with their ignorance. It's not compassionate.

And.. to give an example. Would you let a North Korean individual continue to believe that their leader is a god, if you could do something about it? Would you just stand by and allow them to persist in their brainwashed state, knowing that you could do something about it? That just doesn't seem like the compassionate thing to do to me. But.. to each her own I guess..

HG: I read and hear your Passion SM and I have respect for you expressing it.

(to be continued)
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone from Sinyal Bagus XL, Nyambung Teruuusss...!

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