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Thursday 13 September 2012

[wanita-muslimah] Discussion on Compassion - 7

Wadoooh...ini pada berantem gara2 gw ya?..Duh kenapa ya, di milis2 aku jadi trouble maker..or is the truth too painful? tuluuuung...........

Tapi bagusnya kalo di milis ini orang akhirnya pada minta maaf atau mengundurkan/menahan diri dari thread, di milis lain ditendang...atau putusin milis.....

Salam
Mia

NS: I agree with SM, if I may rephrase it, oppose the bad or falsehood COLLECTIVELY. What I mean by that is we should always support creating or maintaining livable environment, which include this FB group. This has to be our common ground, and it cannot be otherwise. This brings me to the point from HV and JH that - who are we to judge people or any belief? Everyone or everything is "good" until becomes bad by his/her actions.

NS: Kindly allow me to share some description from Bali dance scene about good and bad. Imagine, you re among the audience watching skillful dance and chanting. Good-bad, love-hate is so real in our daily lives, is it not? This is one purpose of the ritual, showing how real that is. At first everything is fine until bad thing happens in the village when someone starts whispering bad things, slandering, even suggesting stealing or killing. This bad spirit roam through village talking and chanting. You, as a spectator starts to feel it, you may even go to trance since many dancers develop "knacks" with their skills. When it reach the climax a shaman (or barongsay) possessing good spirit enter the scene and start healing everyone. Happy ending, yet the purpose is to show how bad spirit overtake the whole village. The cure is to clean the spirit and not necessarily judging people or beliefs as bad (the dancers wear masks to emphasise "the equanimity").

JH: NS, I am confused by your response. You say that we must oppose the bad and falsehood, but then say we must not judge. Labeling something bad or false is judging, is it not? My position is that to make decisions we must judge, but we must listen and watch to see if our judgment is too hasty. My own tendency, and what I see in others, is too little willingness to see what is good in those who differ with me, be it on how or what they think.

SM: JH... you are totally unfounded and out of line when you say that my opinions are based on "limited ability and information," and I find it quite insulting. I feel that you are being inflammatory and contrary with me. Please stop acting so superior.

And then you said this: "even when someone is advocating confrontation, understanding why they do so is important, and it is also important to realize that there could be situations where confrontation is the most compassionate thing you can do." So... why then is it not important to you to try to understand where I am coming from? If it is important to understand people, then why are you dismissing what I am saying immediately? Maybe I have good reasons.

And I find it laughably ironic that you said that sometimes confrontation might be the most compassionate thing to do... So when I say that I believe it is compassionate to actively oppose something that is a brainwashing and leads to negative consequences, I'm being intolerant... but then you can turn around and say that confrontation is "in some situations compassionate?" Seriously? Can you not see how hypocritical that is?

Too little willingness to see what is good in those who differ with me, be it on how or what they think." So... maybe apply that RIGHT NOW?

And I'm not ONLY opposing a belief because it's incorrect (although I do believe that that in itself is a problem). It's also because of the consequences, which I believe are inevitably undesirable. Now, the degree to which those beliefs might negatively impact people is certainly debatable. Sometimes, as I said earlier, it can lead to many awful consequences like the degradation of education and bigotry and hatred. But even the more mild ones still have some consequences. Wanting to die for instance. Most people have absolutely no drive to live past 80 because they are under the (false) impression that they're going to heaven or something after they die. I mean, these people are giving up something solid, concrete, and real (LIFE), for something they really have no clue about whether it is actually there or not (heaven). That's sad. That's a sad thing. I am not okay with it. And it is messing with our society's ability to think ahead. We oppose anti-aging research because of it.

We're anti-cancer, anti-disease, anti-hunger, anti-heart problems, anti-diabetes, anti-obesity.... yet we're pro-aging??? That makes absolutely no sense, except in the context of a mythological belief in the after-life, that nobody can prove and is totally unsubstantiated. Aging is just as big of a killer as cancer, yet nobody cares to fight it at all. That is so sad... and I am not okay with it. And that is just ONE example of one of the many negative consequences that can result, directly or indirectly, from false/unfounded beliefs.

And JH, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of science and should enroll in some science classes.

SS: This saddens me.

HG: SM, I surround you with love and with the compassion that is inherent in our own true nature...You came through as very angry and I am not OK by that...so here is this opportunity to practice Loving Kindness and Compassion. Is it possible for us to be with the learning that we got from our past exchanges and to move on as it is getting too narrow and the thread that connects us is frayed...? Time to breathe space in this thread and to start a new one where we can share with freshness and a beginners mind...What do you all think? If you agree do not post here any longer and start a new thread. Thank You NS for introducing this topic and with your permission I take my leave...

HV: I'm staying out of this "apparent" conflict, too. Time to move on.

SM: I felt utterly attacked about my way of thinking, and thought that I was argued with unnecessarily. It put me in a defensive mode, and that was probably not the right way to go. But that's what happens when you insult someone's intelligence, their way of being compassionate, and all of Science.

I think conflict resolution is more compassionate than ignoring a problem and hoping it goes away.

JH: No offense meant-my opinions are based on limited ability and information. Everyone's are-that's the point. I don't see much I can do by commenting further. Clearly more going on here than I understand. Apologies to all for my role here.

SM: I tend to get overly upset. I'm sorry about that.

It was just the idea of asking "can you prove that proof works?" and "why do you trust the scientific method?" is simply crazy to me. It freaked me out.

But.. I do have a lot of evidence as to how belief can be harmful in and of itself, and it is not just actions that matter. Not only that, but that false beliefs lead to negative actions. I can provide all this proof for anyone who wants it... My boyfriend is actually in the process of writing a book about it.

I don't really want to go into that right now, though. It is a huge topic. Maybe when he's done with it, you can read his book...

(to be continued)
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone from Sinyal Bagus XL, Nyambung Teruuusss...!

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