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Tuesday 11 September 2012

[wanita-muslimah] Discussion on Compassion-4

HV: Thank you for your contribution to the discussion, SS. A couple additional thoughts that have come to me - we all put "faith" in what we believe in: for most people it's the ego, for some it's spirit or the Mystery. The other comes from all my research and teaching about consciousness, particularly now that the scientists have joined the realm of mystics. The most compelling discovery they've made about the scientific method is that there is no absolute scientific truth - the thoughts and beliefs of the scientist change the outcome of their experiments. The beauty of that is that people from different spiritual paths have different beliefs about the causes of sickness and healing; and they will experience the outcome physically of those beliefs, not those of another culture.

NS: HV mentioned mystic, I'm glad. My understanding from Armstrong's books that mystic, from intuition/myth department, is comparable to metaphysic from logic/logos department. Both are the expression of our psyche to the existing physical world. SM, could u share with us what you think about metaphysic? As an example, I believe the school of evolutionary psychology is metaphysic which is beyond conventional scientific proofs? It is an interpretation rather than "provable science". Another one is fractal theory, an attempt to explain the interconnecting matters in the universe across regions, space and time - as HV has implied it before in her postings. I believe further discussion on this will explain more clearly our common ground and even opening new doors. This is one reason why I join the Compassion Charter, and I can't thank you all enough for all the discussion.

From the discussion I think there is a common ground from both logic and intuition department, that there is no absolute truth... except G...D. My empathy arises when SM criticises faith in Abrahamic religions. If I may probe right, I think SM means the organised religions as the main feature in Jew, Christianity and Islam. It happens Islam is now internally struggling with the concept of ummah.

NS: Thank you, NS for demonstrating the whole purpose of compassion, which is to overcome separation and find common ground! Most the problems of the world have come from doing just the opposite! Blessings!

SM: JH "Can you prove it can explain everything?" This is a circular, nonsensical question. And I never said that science has the ability to explain "everything." When did I say that? No, I merely said that what it can explain is backed up by a great deal of REAL, concrete proof.

HV I guess it depends on your definition of "faith," as SS pointed out. I most definitely do NOT hold any faith in anything, as the stereotypical Christian/Jew/Muslim defines faith. I reject that type of faith utterly, and if I am ever caught having it I should be in for a rude awakening.

But perhaps with another definition of "faith" I can agree with you. I'm just not sure what your definition is.

And unfortunately, I disagree with you about the conclusion that there are no scientific truths, or that sickness is up to interpretation. Sure, there are some things up to interpretation in the scientific field - because there are not yet any solid conclusions. But in other areas there are solid, irrefutable conclusions. It's all about proof. I don't care who the scientist is or where s/he's from, I want proof, I want sound statistical measurements, I want the scientific method, and I don't believe that has anything to do with the individual. And if you mix science and spirituality, that is a dangerous path. It is dangerous to all of the scientific community to confuse the two, and to profess that science cannot stand on its own.

The wonderful thing about science is that scientific theories/laws can stand up to scrutiny, and that which cannot stand up to scrutiny gets tossed or modified. I don't see how that can be completely attributable to an individual scientist's bias... Only in the areas in which science doesn't really have much proof or evidence to go on can that be the case.

Honestly, I think what you are talking about with the example of sickness and healing is the placebo effect - which is very real and very important, I think. I think the placebo effect has been much abused by undervaluing it's true meaning. In truth I suspect that it has a lot in common with things like meditation, which works - it all goes to show the power of the human mind to affect the body. I think that is very real, and of course dependant partly on one's culture. But I still believe that science is perfectly capable of explaining it in a rational, universal way.

NS you bring up interesting points, and I will be the first to admit that I am not at all qualified to speak about it. I do not really know much at all about metaphysics, except that it is synonymous (I think) with supernatural.

My basic opinion is this - if science cannot explain something, it is not because of a lack on the part of the scientific method. It's just a matter of time. Maybe we do not have a precise science about evolutionary psychology yet, or about fractals. But that is temporary. This is only one moment in the timeline of the human race, and just because we aren't able to explain something by scientific means YET, doesn't mean that we won't.

NS: I brought it up, metaphysics and/or meta-theory, as HV's and SS's remark reminded me, mystic and ritual as the other half of meta-theory and empiric. These are the tools as we know now, probing further into convergence, interconnecting, interdependence, "the one world, the common ground" we all have agreed at least here in the discussion. In my country such expression is coined in the national proverb: bhinneka tunggal ika, or unity in diversity (then of course, it's easier said than done!). Interestingly also, how we express each opinion in different ways, yet...it's so similar, it's pointing to one thing, yet at times we are lost in translation. You said for example which I couldn't understand at first (I was lost), "the most productive in the long-term". Then you explained further that "if science cannot explain something.....It's just a matter of time." Yes indeed, logic and reason do take real time to reveal itself (now, I'm not lost). Another example, no doubt we all agree when you said "Committing suicide will inevitably traumatize your loved ones forever". Yet, if I understand correctly, HV was talking about "mercy killing, dying groups", which is different from merely "committing suicide". I will love to discuss the concept of "moksa" and preparing in old age in another thread.

SS it is interesting you brought up the meaning of rituals. Collectively we now live in the age of reason as the offspring of western civilisation. Ms Armstrong says in many of her books that nowadays we have lost acquiring "true" knowledge through rituals, symbols, myth. As SM pointed out correctly, organised religions have brought more violence and destruction. Yes, organised religions have lost their true knowledge, the legacy of the prophets and sages. The myths have degraded into superstitions and hearsays.

SM, do you agree that logic takes time, slow and appear to be indecisive, while emotion/intuition is just the opposite? It's instant energy overtaking us, that is why it appears more decisive and convincing (and in negative side, dogmatic). True knowledge, the legacy from prophets, sages,great artists, great scientists, great leaders in the past, have revealed itself "instantly" to them. And now we are revealing it rationally, in time, piece by piece. Yet, we are lost now, because scientific minds are slow and indecisive in judging that our only planet is in real threat due to our own greediness?

SS: NS I agree, the results of the anti-science, fundamentalist movement in American Christianity, as well as extremist views in other religions have robbed us and our children of the value and wisdom that was available for centuries through ritual. Ritual and the study of origin stories, are now, for me, living in the age of reason, a few of the ways that I can participate in religion without giving in to the non-sense. I want access to the wisdom of generations of maternal story tellers and this true knowledge is only lost if I don't keep it alive, indeed, if I allow fundamentalists to lay claim to it and distort it.

(to be continued)
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone from Sinyal Bagus XL, Nyambung Teruuusss...!

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