SM: I appreciate that. I don't mean to be overly excited :) But you're right, I'm rather passionate about the subject.
HV: Some of the difference in our approaches is in our age. I'm 68 and did all my protesting, demonstrating, teaching "another way" in the 70's to 90's. Now I'm retired and have no energy for changing anyone else's mind. I have enough to do to forgive or be at peace with whoever is in my face in any one moment. If I can change my mind about any person in my life from conflict to peace, that is a good day! I'm glad there are still causes other people can put their energy behind, that we who fought against war, racial and gender discrimination didn't have all the "fun..." You go, girl!
HG: I am with HV. I particularly support the " you go girl" part. The passing of the torch is the image which came to mind and finding my own path that continues to contribute..
JH: SM, can you prove that logic and concrete evidence cannot be refuted? Sounds like a faith to me. Even if you are correct, is there any possibility that you don't have enough facts or that you've made mistakes in your application of logic and reason? Compassion to me requires taking into account our own imperfection before taking actions that affect others and being open to the possibility that our supposedly compassionate acts will actually cause suffering and require corrective action.
HV: Well put, JH. Thanks.
SS: A wise Jewish theologian has a sign on his office door: "Think that you might be wrong." To me, this is compassion. I wonder if religion is as much of a problem as how some "zealots" or "extremists" interpret religion? There is a "truth" found in ritual (often applied by religions) that lies beyond logic. Karen Armstrong lays this out nicely in her book A Case For God. Peace!
SM: Thank you, HV.
JH, I think you have a serious misunderstanding of concrete evidence, if you believe that it and proof are two different things, and if you think that faith has anything to do with it. The whole point of a scientific perspective is to be open to new evidence and new proof... so no, there is no faith involved. If new evidence comes along that indicates that a current hypothesis is incorrect or incomplete, then we who are of a scientific mind, change. Faith does not enter the equation.
Of course there can be mistakes... that is why we have peer-review, and that is why something must be subjected to thousands of experiments and must have thousands of pieces of evidence before it is accepted as a scientific theory or a law. The theory of gravity or evolution, for examples.
Anyway, as Christopher Hitchens said, "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." I am not trying to say that my idea of the universe is correct, I'm just trying to say that it is inappropriate for ANYONE to pretend to have a perfect, irrefutable, comprehensive understanding of the entire nature of the universe, based on faith alone.
As I said before, I agree with you that the subject must be approached cautiously - I don't want to try to force anyone into anything. That would be just as bad as brainwashing. But I do want to try my hardest to lead them into the light of reason, and away from the darkness of faith and superstition, and the brainwashing that Abrahamic religion generally tends to promote.
SS, the thing that I LIKE about the scientific approach is that we always think that we might be wrong. That's the beauty of it, and that is the harm, I feel, in faith. Faith is a belief that you absolutely know the truth, no matter what, because it's faith, you don't need proof or evidence, you just bend the rest of the world to your expectations of it and aren't open to change. That is why I am going to actively oppose it as much as I can, while still doing my best to remain respectful and tolerant towards others.
I suspect that any truth found in ritual is a psychological thing more so than an indication that we have a profound understanding of "god" or anything like that. We human beings have a certain attachment to religion, that is just how we evolved. It doesn't mean that it necessarily holds truth about the universe and the nature of reality (except perhaps the nature of the human condition).
HG: SM... The dream lives on the passion is REAL... Be who you are and the Light that is your Birth Right will continue to shine through...you go girl!
JH: What makes you trust scientific method? Can you prove it can explain everything? Consider Gödel's incompleteness theorems-mathematically rigorous proofs that there are more true statements than can be proven in a system of logic.
SS: SM: I am all about the scientific approach. And I do not confuse "religion" and "faith". I, as I hear you also saying, reject "faith" as you have defined it above. My Greek scholar friends tell me that the word "faith" as it appears in English bibles, from the Greek "pistis", is more properly interpreted as "faithfulness". It's more helpful for me to understand it this way, that we have a responsibility to be "faithful" to each other and to creation. I think that properly interpreted, the Abrahamic traditions get this right.
But I think I was misunderstood as it relates to ritual. The "truth", for me, in ritual, is the understanding that we CANNOT come to an "understanding" of a "god", remotely interventionary or otherwise. I reject the belief that we CAN use our language to describe the indescribable, or use our intellect to fathom the unfathomable. I understand it to the extent that I am able and that's all I've got! But I will not disenfranchise those who are white knuckling life by trying to bring them to my understanding (limited as it may be.) This, I believe, is part of our individual journeys.
Having said that, I WILL stand up to those who hurt others by their "beliefs", as in the same sex marriage issue for instance. In this effort I applaud your work and wish you peace.
(to be continued)
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone from Sinyal Bagus XL, Nyambung Teruuusss...!
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